In this episode, Cameron is joined by Mary Beth Hagen, a veteran in the aesthetic medicine industry, and they discuss the evolution of Mary Beth’s business from recruiting to coaching and screening for aesthetic providers. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding innate aptitudes for success in aesthetic medicine, innovative screening processes, and the dynamics of compensation and business management in aesthetic practices. The episode emphasizes the need for effective communication and creating win-win environments for both injectors and practices.

Transcript

Cameron Hemphill (00:00.954)
Hey everybody, Cameron Hemphill here, your host for Medical Millionaire. Hey guys, thank you so much for taking the time to tune into the podcast. Our goal is to give incredible value and insight for practice owners. So if you’re thinking about getting into this amazing specialty, or you are currently an aesthetics provider and practice owner, all of these episodes are 100 % designed for you and help take your practice to the next level.

So guys, today I have an amazing guest that’s gonna be joining us. She has been in the industry since 2005. I really consider her as a Titan of the industry. And what’s interesting about that is she has a very cool business called Titan Aesthetic, formerly known as Titan Aesthetic Recruiting. She has now changed her business model ever so slightly that’s really focusing on.

coaching and career paths and screening and guiding and It’s just amazing her and I were just talking offline and so I’m super excited to have her Marybeth Hagan Thank you so much my dear welcome to the show

Mary Beth (01:04.856)
Thanks, Cameron. Really appreciate being able to be here with you this morning.

Cameron Hemphill (01:08.192)
Absolutely. So talk to us about like when we were just chatting, and I feel like you’re almost having like a pre podcast before we were just hit the record button, which was a lot of fun. And I kind of just want to pick up where we left off if that’s okay. Maybe we could rewind it slightly, but talk to us about this, this change from focusing like heavily recruiting to the new business model around coaching and screening. I know you have some

proprietary stuff and compensation surveys, can you just for the audience and the listener, can you kind of set the stage for us?

Mary Beth (01:41.358)
Absolutely. And I’m sure there’s a lot of people who are listening who work in the aesthetic specialty. Now, you know, the last 10 years have been that of amazing growth. And, know, really what we’re doing with kind of changing from tight aesthetic recruiting to tight aesthetic is we’re going back to a lot of our roots.

I’m the kind of person that if somebody calls me and says, Marybeth, can you do this? Marybeth, can you help me with this? I tend to create things for them and just add it to my services. you know, you get to a certain point and you have to say, I cannot be all things to all people. And let’s go back to what we really do well. When I started Titan in 2017, after years at Metasys and then at Allergan, I really wanted to provide a…

resource for aesthetic professionals, particularly RNs, NPs, and PAs, who are looking at transitioning into aesthetic medicine. And you think about this amazing field and specialty that we have, it really is the only area of medicine where there is no academic training.

professional development or growth path or credentialing path for being an RN, NP or PA injector or aesthetic provider. And so I wanted to kind of be the clearinghouse for information for people looking to come into the specialty or work within the specialty where they could feel safe and know that this is information particularly for them. That’s a little bit of Titan’s name itself. Titan itself stands for Top Injectors Treating in Aesthetics Now.

Cameron Hemphill (03:10.38)
I like it.

Mary Beth (03:10.962)
And I know everybody goes, I never knew that. And what we really try to do is focus on education, focus on creating win-win scenarios with employers, and making sure that these people are staying true to the medicine part of aesthetic medicine. And so when I first started Titan Aesthetic Recruiting, my concept of recruiting was we want to recruit medical providers who truly want to work within aesthetic medicine. And how do we help do it?

the right career path, with the right educational development path, and with the right aptitudes. Because I’ve been in the specialty long enough that I can truly tell you that just because someone’s an RN and PPA or physician, they don’t necessarily have the innate aptitudes to do aesthetic medicine well.

I was very blessed to be able to work with a lot of amazing injectors through my early career at Metasys and then Allergan. And it really taught me that if you can look at these innate characteristics and can screen for those right at the beginning and then train and develop those people.

you’re going to have someone who really can be a great cultural and medical fit within your practice. So when we started Titan, it really was on supporting injectors and then with the Titan aesthetic screening. So what we’ve done with kind of this rebuild or reassessing my time, because it’s still just me, I think a lot of people think that Titan is this huge organization. And when you call Titan, you call me when you email Titan, you email me. I have one amazing placement coach that works with

me, Wendy Collins, that’s been in the specialty as long as I have. And then our admin is this amazing Marissa, who actually ran the customer, part of the customer service team at Allergan for many years. So when you call somebody, you get me, get Wendy, you get Marissa, and you get people who have all been in the specialty for 20 years.

Cameron Hemphill (05:01.988)
Nice.

Mary Beth (05:09.506)
And that’s where we want to do. We want to use our experience to help guide people who’ve been there, but also help guide people who are looking to come into this growing specialty. So that’s why we’re kind of just condensing down. We’re taking out recruiting so people don’t think that we’re a headhunter. They don’t think that we steal somebody from one practice to put them in another. My ethics just won’t let me do that. And so what we’re really doing is focusing on the tightness that is screening to really look at candidates who you might be looking to hire for your practice and make sure that you understand what’s

needed to create a win-win environment. We are doing a lot of coaching with injectors and medical professionals coming into the specialty and with practices helping them understand how did you develop these injectors within your practice. And then we do a lot of business consulting but not with great big products or systems. We really do a lot with what are your needs? What are the things you’re struggling with? Can we help you make sure that you’re identifying good goals for your practice? And then

Since I’ve kind of been around for a while, I know a lot of people and then I try to refer them out to the people who are going to help them meet their needs. So that’s kind of where we’re focusing on now.

Cameron Hemphill (06:08.793)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (06:14.84)
Yeah, mean, shoot, I feel like everybody knows who you are. And I mean, you know, it’s, and the people on your team too, I bet like the combined experience that you have has to be up there, you know, 60 years plus, I would assume. yeah, you’re packed.

Mary Beth (06:26.638)
It’s pretty fun. you know, we try to…

know, I forget my language, but we try to be pretty much no bullshit. I’ll be quite honest. People laugh because I don’t make a lot of money with Titan. I’m never going to sell Titan because I do way too much pro bono work. But I really care about all of the people that I work with. Just got an offer this morning from one of our coaching candidates. And, you know, it costs her $600 a year. I mean, $600 to work with me for her process and help her identify where does she go to interview when she interviews? What questions should she ask?

Cameron Hemphill (06:34.466)
Yeah, I like it.

Mary Beth (07:01.345)
follow-up process. She got her offer and I spent a couple hours with her this morning going through the offer. What questions should you have? How do you look at this? Is it a good offer? Are there things you should come back with? And it literally is not meant to change anything or negotiate, but we want people to be informed. And you know, just like a medical school, they don’t teach a physician how to run a practice.

Cameron Hemphill (07:06.394)
Thanks.

Cameron Hemphill (07:18.852)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (07:23.257)
Yep.

Mary Beth (07:23.79)
Nobody teaches injectors how to run a practice or how to look at contracts or how to do a lot of these things either. And I just try to be a little bit of a aesthetic whisperer for them.

Cameron Hemphill (07:35.194)
Yeah. Well, this this individual that had the offer that you reviewed, did they come like have they been in the I would assume they’ve been in the specialty for a while. Okay.

Mary Beth (07:43.412)
Mm-hmm. She’s been and actually she was one of the people I’ve been working with her on and off since about 2018 and so, you know, she’s made a couple of choices and you know, that’s one of the things I think I’m most appreciative of a lot of the injectors that we work with are people that I have known and worked with for years and that’s a lot of why Titan was so special to me because You know, there aren’t a lot of people who can truly say my whole

Cameron Hemphill (07:49.978)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (08:10.798)
reason for being is to support RNs and PAs and PA’s in aesthetic medicine. And that’s what we do.

Cameron Hemphill (08:16.132)
Yeah, that’s amazing. And so when you’re doing the screening process, right? I know you have something really unique and special there. that like, do you conduct that on like a two-way outlook? Let’s say if you have a practice that is looking for a candidate or you even have a candidate looking to go somewhere. I’m curious on that. Yeah.

Mary Beth (08:23.15)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (08:40.706)
Yeah. You know, years ago, how the whole screening came about, I had a physician who I was working with in Minnesota. And he came to me and he said, Marybeth, and I’d only been in the specialty probably for a year at that point or less. And he said, I hire all these PAs and I train them.

in aesthetic medicine the same way. And some of them get it, and some of them just never do. So help me figure out, how do I know which ones are going to get it before I put all this time and energy into training them? And it was such a good question. And you I mean, you think about it, Cameron, when you hire people for Growth99, you have to look at not only what do you need as an employer, but you have to look at what does that prospective candidate want.

in a employer so that they will feel comfortable. So literally what we did, I kind of gave him some ideas and it seemed to work. And so years later, when I started Titan, we created the Titan screening and it’s a proprietary. I got to find another name for it other than screening, because I guess it’s more of an assessment. I don’t say yes or no. It’s just who is this person? So usually the process is someone will find somebody that they like, that they’re interested in hiring. They find out, you know, are they someone who would be a good cultural fit?

Cameron Hemphill (09:47.46)
Sure.

Mary Beth (09:58.04)
And then I have them send them to me to screen. Hi, so and so. The next step in our interview process is to talk with our consultant, Mary Beth Hagan of Titan. She’s going to schedule a one hour phone call with you. We have them do a right left brain quiz. We have them have a discussion with us where we kind of do an aptitude conversation. Then we have a picture assessment and we have a hobby overview.

Cameron Hemphill (10:16.772)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (10:20.228)
Okay.

Mary Beth (10:20.25)
And each one of those four sections, two of them are subjective, two of them are objective. And what we’re really looking at is what is the innate aptitude of that person? How does their brain naturally think? Then we think about who are they? What are they looking for? What drives them? Are they self-motivated? Are they a ongoing learner?

Because let’s be honest, when you’re looking at aesthetic medicine, you better be somebody that wants to learn nonstop because this industry is on high power. Exactly. And then you have to, you know, I’ve been in probably 3000 practices through my years. And what I have learned is that if somebody doesn’t have that eye, I don’t care how much training you give them, they’re never going to be a highly innate skilled.

Cameron Hemphill (10:45.686)
yeah, it’ll be a sponge.

Mary Beth (11:06.346)
Injector of fillers. Fillers are art class and Botox or toxins are math class. know with a toxin you get the right amount of product and the right muscles gonna work every time but with a filler man, everyone’s got a different idea of what they want and the sides aren’t the same and you you can’t there’s not gonna be a you know, paint my numbers for that. Yeah!

Cameron Hemphill (11:12.441)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (11:19.14)
Totally.

Cameron Hemphill (11:23.738)
You’re sculpting, yeah, it’s art.

Mary Beth (11:26.668)
So you’ve got to have that artistic talent. And so we do that picture assessment to give us an idea of can they see volume and shape and can they understand the difference of what happens with light and shadows and do they see things other than just wrinkles and gray hair. And based on what somebody sees, you can tell if they have that innate aptitude. They can learn the language. They can learn the skills if they have that innate aptitude.

Cameron Hemphill (11:48.067)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Beth (11:49.462)
And then the hobbies, you know, people who are true artists, almost every single provider I know, surgeon, physician, non-physician, they’re all artists of some sort. And so that comes out in their hobbies. Plus you find out what they expect in terms of time in the practice and a lot of other things as well. It’s just fun because when we have this conversation,

Cameron Hemphill (11:55.864)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (12:07.694)
Very true.

Mary Beth (12:10.582)
we find out a lot of things that you don’t necessarily find out in the normal interview. And so, like I said, it’s not a hire them, don’t hire them. It is a, what makes this person tick? What’s important to them? And how can you coach and develop and work with them in your practice so that they’re happy and meeting their growth and development needs for the long haul so that you retain this person in your practice for a long time. And it’s only $600. So.

Cameron Hemphill (12:21.582)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (12:35.086)
Yeah, the limit change.

Mary Beth (12:39.384)
I would say it’s one the best deals in aesthetic medicine.

Cameron Hemphill (12:39.394)
Yeah. mean, it’s, I mean, shoot, invest that money upfront, go through that. Like when you talk about the image aspect in the hobby aspect, I can see for a lot of practice owners that they, even though they know they are not assessing that.

Mary Beth (12:50.094)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (12:59.042)
I would like, because I assume, let’s just say a seasoned injector, somebody that’s been in the specialty for a few years, let’s just call it and they want to go maybe life change, they are moving across the country. I don’t know. They want to continue doing what they’re doing just in a different area. Let’s just take that example. Well, and you would know this better than me, but I would assume they lean in on, okay, like, and maybe that’s a bad example. Let’s go more local. Sorry, let’s go more local, right?

Mary Beth (13:09.87)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (13:25.166)
Well, no, they look at skills. They don’t, they look at, yeah, and what do you do? What can you do to make my practice meet the needs? But if you’re not looking and saying, okay, I have things I need you to do to help support my practice, but as a practice, I wanna also know what can we do to support you so you can be a satisfied and happy professional in our practice?

Cameron Hemphill (13:26.83)
They look at skills and they probably look at production if it’s more localized, right? Okay. Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (13:35.278)
Right.

Mary Beth (13:50.732)
And that’s where the screening helps create that true win-win partnership. And that’s where we do a lot of work with compensation work as well. And that’s something that I look at with practices. People get so nervous talking about money. And there are a lot of clients I’ve worked with who are very good negotiators. And they think everything has to be in negotiation.

Cameron Hemphill (13:54.98)
Totally. Yeah.

Mary Beth (14:17.134)
Most providers, most RNs and PAs and PAs that I work with are not good negotiators. They are not comfortable talking about money. But they have things that are important to them. So if we can do this screening, if we can have these conversations ahead of time and help create a really good win-win environment for the employee and the employer, whether they’re a provider, whether they’re a marketing manager, whether it’s a practice manager, we can really help whoever’s doing the hiring.

Cameron Hemphill (14:36.718)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mary Beth (14:42.826)
understand the candidate and how and if they’re going to be a good fit. We give a five to eight page written report after the screening and I was a journalism major at Northwestern so I type fast and so you get to see some pretty interesting insights.

Cameron Hemphill (14:51.802)
That’s amazing. Well, you’re giving me a great write up then. Holy cow. No, that’s amazing. I mean, you’re saving people so much time by doing that. You know, like there’s so much value in that. It’s like, Hey, I want to hire this particular person or go after this particular candidate. Like it just saves so much time from the searching, from the right fit, from understanding if there are.

career path is going to fit within, you know, the same as the practice owner’s career path in terms of growth. The imaging one really stood out to me in the hobbies from an artistic standpoint, you know, like, yeah, you could learn, like if you have the skills and are eager and want to learn in advance, but you’re not the best artist, that creates a challenge.

Mary Beth (15:39.712)
But know what Cameron? You might be the perfect person to run the device side of the practice. You may be someone who is great for overviewing the OSHA requirements. You can write the protocols and the procedure manuals. You are probably someone who is going to be really good at making sure processes in the practice. And so like I said, it’s not their good or bad. It’s just making sure you use them within the practice so that their innate aptitudes and their natural skills get used to the fullest.

Cameron Hemphill (15:45.454)
Totally.

Cameron Hemphill (15:57.562)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (16:08.622)
Yeah, yeah, I would be the worst injector for filler. My gosh, my worst artist. My daughters are great. Both of them are like phenomenal artists. And they kind of have an idea like my 10 year old, she has an idea what daddy finally does. And she’s, she’s interested in it, which is really cool. So

Mary Beth (16:12.078)
You

Mary Beth (16:28.718)
Well, and that’s it. But if she wants to be an injector, what’s the path? How does she learn about it? And that’s where our coaching services come in. I love working with injectors. And the whole time I was at Metasys and then at Allergan, whether it was as a manager, as the Botox product manager, as the national account director, I loved working with the injectors. And they’ve never worked in corporate America. And with the more corporate ownership,

Cameron Hemphill (16:33.367)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Mary Beth (16:56.808)
in aesthetic practices, we’re seeing things come in that they’ve never been exposed to, whether it be a contract, whether it be a job offer, whether it be a performance management process, they’ve never had these things. And so we can really be kind of a safe place for them to ask questions, to help them develop their plans, to even practice how they want to go talk to their employers. And

You know, probably the best compliment I ever got was from an injector practice owner who said, you know, Marybeth, I was really nervous when you were going to talk about compensation because I was afraid you were going to say, here’s what you should be making. And you your employer’s not paying your injector enough. And we don’t do that at all. You know, part of our coaching is also helping injectors understand here’s how much comes in to a practice.

Cameron Hemphill (17:36.441)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (17:47.724)
You only get money from products or services sold and from treatments provided. Yeah. And here’s everything that has to get paid for with that. And it’s not just your compensation. It is insurance, and it’s a lease, and it’s all the equipment, it’s all the products. they need that. I really try to help providers understand how expensive it is. I mean, the margins, and I think this is what has maybe surprised a lot of private equity people.

Cameron Hemphill (17:51.428)
Yeah, full traction.

Cameron Hemphill (18:04.687)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (18:11.577)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (18:16.366)
there aren’t big margins in aesthetic medicine. And the majority of people who do this and do it well, do it because they love the patient care and the medicine part of it, not because they’re getting super rich. And so that’s where I kind of do a lot of consulting with practices and businesses and helping them understand, here’s the injector mindset, I hope the injectors understand, here’s the business aspect.

Cameron Hemphill (18:39.439)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (18:41.214)
And I try to just be a safe space for everybody to really learn those things they’re scared to ask.

Cameron Hemphill (18:43.418)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (18:47.252)
That’s amazing. It’s so helpful. think I see all the time where you have an injector that’s doing well for himself or herself. And, you know, they’re happy, but maybe they’re more entrepreneurial minded and they, you know, want to go open up their own practice without really doing the discovery or research on what really that looks like when it comes to a bill that at least the technology costs, the marketing costs, the personnel, the liability exposure.

It’s real. It’s very real. And I mean, I know some practices, practice owners I talked to, I’m like, shoot, the injectors make more money than I do. And they don’t carry any liability really. I mean, some, but not nearly as much as the owner.

Mary Beth (19:16.45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Beth (19:24.206)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (19:29.826)
Well, and that’s what we talk about. When I talk to a lot of providers who think they want to leave and start their own practice, it’s usually, actually in the Titan Compensation Survey, we ask that question. Are you going to stay? Are you going to go? If you go, are you looking for another practice or are you looking to start your own practice? And last year, of the people who said they were looking to leave, 15 % said they were going to start their own practice.

Cameron Hemphill (19:42.542)
Okay.

Mary Beth (19:57.376)
The interesting thing was it wasn’t because they thought they were going to make more money. wasn’t because they, know, some of them were, I just have this entrepreneurial buck. I want to do it. The number one reason was I’m leaving and starting my own practice because I don’t like the management at the practice I met. But again, so much of that can, well, no, it’s communication and it’s expectations.

Cameron Hemphill (20:12.206)
Okay.

Just getting along, working well with others basically. Okay? Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (20:21.426)
And that’s a lot of why we created the Titan Performance Management Process last year. Because as I was talking with these providers and saying, know, why do you want to leave? What are you looking for? And, I had one and people may have heard me tell this story before, but she said, I was so excited for my performance review. I went in at the end of the year and for the first time.

I hit more than $2 million in patient revenue production. I can you imagine having a $2 million injector in your practice? yeah, the practice manager didn’t even know how much revenue that.

Cameron Hemphill (20:49.86)
huge.

Cameron Hemphill (20:53.516)
That’s amazing. There was so much money.

that’s so bad. my gosh. That’s tough. Yeah, that’s tough.

Mary Beth (21:00.75)
Yeah, and so it becomes a, where’s the value, right? I mean, all of us, your employees, you, me, we all want to be valued for what we do and what we provide to where we work. And, you know, most of the time, it’s just awareness and being told, thank you. It’s not always, I need to make more money. But I think a lot of practices don’t do performance review processes because they’re afraid that injector is just going to ask for more money.

Cameron Hemphill (21:11.352)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (21:30.56)
Now, if they’ve grown significantly and they provide large contribution, you want to assess, are they being paid favorably for the market? But that’s why we do the Titan Compensation Survey, because we want to see, where is the market for compensation? so as we set up, we kind of try to do two things. We try to say, let us work with injectors. Let us work with practices. Let’s try to make sure that everybody is happy.

They appreciate the employment and they are going to retain in the practice. so that the patients stay in the practice. You and I were talking about the fact that, know, patients are not always necessarily loyal to a practice. They’re loyal to their injector. So yeah, it behooves a practice to make sure that their injector is happy and stays there and grows and develops with them. But how do you do that if you’re not having, you know, ongoing conversations about what works? So I love, yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (22:09.518)
Totally. Yep.

Cameron Hemphill (22:18.365)
yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (22:24.472)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting. That hits home with me a little bit. have a, I know a provider locally where I live. And she was at a place that’s a pretty well known brand and making good income and providing a good service and continuously brings in great production. And I think the management

It’s interesting you say that the management wasn’t really, they probably knew. I’m sure the owners know you have to have it broken down somewhere. Here’s the provider and here’s revenue they’re bringing in at some level, whether you’re a manager that’s going to have the discipline to look at the report and give accolades and show you care. The owners have to know. so she felt like she wasn’t really getting recognized and decided to go out on her own. And what happened was

they lost a lot of patient flow to that brand because they followed the provider that they had built trust with immediately. And so was kind of a big blow to the practice, but also a wake-up call as well.

Mary Beth (23:31.362)
Well, I get frustrated with injectors who say, how did they not know? And I get frustrated with practices who say, how could they just leave? Because I’m like, again, it’s not good, it’s not bad. It’s just communication and expectations. So that’s why I really like working with practices to help them set up performance management processes.

and you know that’s a process it’s not just a do a performance evaluation of the both of us have puppies that are saying so i think i think what we really look at is employers have to say here are the goals that we need the practice to achieve this year in order to meet our business goals but they also have to work with the employees to say

Cameron Hemphill (24:02.447)
Peace.

Cameron Hemphill (24:15.418)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (24:19.564)
What do you want to achieve in terms of your personal development goals? And how do we work with you and support you in being happy and growing and developing in your career?

Cameron Hemphill (24:23.724)
Yep.

Mary Beth (24:31.182)
And so if both parties sit down at the beginning of the year and say, you know, here are the objectives for the year, here are the personal objectives for the year. Let’s set up development. Here’s where you are. Here’s where you want to be. Here are the steps you’re going to take to achieve where you want to be. And if you achieve this goal, whether it’s a practice goal or a personal development goal, here’s what the reward will be at the end of the year. And it’s logical.

Cameron Hemphill (24:54.798)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (24:57.806)
I always tell everybody, I’m not brilliant. I’m just very, very, very logical. And if everybody at the beginning of the year says, here are the goals I have to hit to get this raise or to get these extra vacation days or to get this new equipment that I want to do, you know. So that’s why what we do is we literally sit down and say, here’s how you create goals. Here’s how you first work with each person in the practice and say, how do they want to be managed? Because, okay, embarrassing story.

Cameron Hemphill (24:57.978)
Don’t you?

Cameron Hemphill (25:10.564)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (25:28.734)
I like to be recognized for doing well in sales all the years I was in sales. I assumed all of my team had the same goal. And I sat down with one of my reps one year and he said, I don’t want to win leadership. I said, well, why not? He goes, I’ve had seven managers in six years, Marybeth. I’ve learned if I just keep my head down, stay in the middle of the path, then nobody notices me and I don’t get any hassle. I just want to.

Cameron Hemphill (25:48.9)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (25:56.602)
You’re not the best, but you’re not the worst. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. That would fill me too.

Mary Beth (25:59.244)
my God, it completely floored me. And so, yeah, so we use how I want to be managed, but I adapted that form for aesthetic medicine. So I’ve got a form and I think it’s great for every manager to sit down and have every employee fill it out. You know, here’s what I like. Here’s what I don’t like. Here’s how I want to be rewarded. Here’s how I want to be recognized. I had another rep that said, don’t call me out in meetings. It really makes me uncomfortable. Never occurred to me. I thought she would have loved that appreciation.

hated it. So you have to understand the different personality and really support each person individually to help them be happy. I always love talking to plastic surgeons because let’s be honest, they are some of the most driven, most inspired, most idea focused people and that’s why they’re surgeons. they think everybody, when you’re like that, you think everybody’s like that.

Cameron Hemphill (26:48.473)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (26:53.613)
yeah, yeah.

Mary Beth (26:54.414)
I mean, you have your own company, you know too, you think everybody’s… Yeah. But you know, we need to have people that fit all sides. You you need to have that person that’s quite happy sitting in the back of the room going through all the data. You know, if they don’t have… If they’re finding nine to help them with some of that data production. You have to have the person that’s going to sit down and be really good about making sure that everything is charted and being very… So you got to have all those different people.

Cameron Hemphill (26:56.96)
my gosh, would you? Yes, absolutely. yeah.

Mary Beth (27:21.856)
And everybody has different rewards. Some people want more money. Some people want a better schedule. Some people want an extra day off. Some people just want to be able to go to a conference. So you’ve got to sit down and ask people what they want. And then when you’re looking at money, you have to make sure that it’s something that is achievable with the revenue that comes in. And that’s why it has to be discussed in the beginning of the year, not at the end of the year.

Cameron Hemphill (27:42.478)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (27:46.84)
Yeah, you got to set expectations beginning of the year going in and making sure that we’re going to hit our targets and our goals and agree to those. And as they have their one-on-ones or however they meet, it’s important to review that and kind of remind what we agreed to. Let’s say you have a one-on-one in March, you had a plan in January, one-on-one in March, you know, kind of go back to the baseline that we set. So you can assess where we’re at. Are we going in the right direction, wrong direction? Where do we pivot? I totally agree.

I was going to ask you, have you ever built a compensation program for injectors or you have? Okay. Yeah. I was curious. if I’m not a practice owner, maybe one day I will be, I’ve been asked to invest in practices, but are

Mary Beth (28:15.118)
What?

Mary Beth (28:22.199)
yeah. Lots and lots and lots.

Cameron Hemphill (28:36.374)
Our big umbrella company owns quite a few practices, which is kind of interesting. So I guess by default, I guess I own some practices, but I don’t work in a practice. I’ve never opened one. You know, I know a lot about the specialty and how it flows in the tech and the marketing and cost per lead and all the, all the, like, I know a tremendous amount of information that is very important for practice owners. But, if I, like for me as an entrepreneur and business owner and scaling businesses, when I’m hiring a performer.

Mary Beth (28:53.454)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (29:07.51)
that performer needs a baseline, right, to kind of cover daily needs, monthly needs, right, feel comfortable, they can sleep at night. And then obviously, there’s if they’re a revenue producer, they there has to be compensation tied to production. And if you hit certain thresholds, there’s obviously a commission or whatever you want to call it that’s paid out.

And then if you achieve specific targets, there’s also like bonus layers on top of that. I think from my back, like that’s how I would design it. And then I would tie it back to even patient retention in a way, you know, so you’re not constantly focused on new patient acquisition, which I think is extremely important. But I was curious to know, you know, if you had, like I figured you did.

but which ones you’ve seen be successful? I think some practice owners really struggle with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Beth (30:06.382)
Well, and they should because it’s not an easy topic. Cameron, I first started Titan in 2017, I bet 50 % of the questions I got were, I’m an injector, how much should I be paid? Or I have an injector in my practice or I’m looking to hire an injector, how much should I pay them? And.

There really isn’t a lot of data out there. And so one of the first things that I did was we partnered with Gordian Solutions Group and Brian Poltanova Jones the company and was did the market research ran that kind of market research and compensation for Metisys and he started this market research firm and

He helped me put together what I thought was a really good survey. And the first year we basically tried to figure out what do injectors make. And we sent it out to as many, basically put the link out there, tried to get as many people to complete it as possible. And the funny, the first year I said, I think we’re gonna find it all over the place. And we had to set the questions up appropriately.

Cameron Hemphill (31:04.196)
Smart.

Mary Beth (31:15.232)
And the gal who helped me field it said, Marybeth, think what you’re going to find is, you know, we do these all the time. And that always comes with some trends. And you’re going to find that there are certain blocks and things. Yeah. She called me when we got the data back. And she said, I know you’re not going to be surprised by this. But in all my years of doing market research, I’ve never seen this. I’m pretty sure there are not two injectors in the United States that get paid the same.

Cameron Hemphill (31:22.586)
Demographics, location, yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (31:39.116)
Mary Beth (31:40.076)
And so I tell you that story simply so that people, and people ask me all the time, what’s the norm for an injector? And so what we found in doing this survey now, it’ll be the seventh year this spring, we’ll field it starting next month, so please be on the lookout for it.

Cameron Hemphill (31:47.181)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (31:57.029)
my gosh, do you email that out? Like the results?

Mary Beth (31:58.67)
You know what I do is I send it. We don’t email out the results. We do sell it. But what we do offer anybody who’s an RN, an MP, or a PA who does aesthetic medicine in the United States, we do provide a free copy of the results to them and the insights guide. sell. It’s not cheap to do these, as you can imagine. So I sell it for $500, which is not. And I split the revenue with GSG. I’m very open about everything.

Cameron Hemphill (32:21.082)
yeah, Okay.

We’ll put me on your purchasing list. Yeah, because I know how much effort that takes. We’ve done, we just did a massive survey and benchmark report that we just released. It’s very interesting, very interesting data in there. But anyway, carry on. So yeah.

Mary Beth (32:28.78)
Yeah, I mean, but it’s… Yeah.

Mary Beth (32:40.942)
Yeah, I know everybody’s like, my God, and we do, we get a lot of people, and I always tell everybody, this is not how much someone should be paid, but this is factors that go into determining. So I kind of have a couple of things that I have people think about. Number one, are they full-time or are part-time? And we ask about that data in the survey. We have different data points.

Cameron Hemphill (32:48.676)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (32:52.121)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (33:02.191)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (33:04.142)
We basically have seen, it’s pretty fascinating, we just reviewed the survey on the Titan membership webinar last week, so that’s available. If you want to join the Titan membership, it is $500 a year. We have more than 120 recorded webinars all by injectors, for injectors, and we record all of them and then put them on the archives. So you get two to four live webinars each month and then you have plus the entire recorded archive of everything you ever want

Cameron Hemphill (33:20.11)
Nice.

Mary Beth (33:32.628)
to know about synthetic medicine on the injectable side or non-surgical side. But what we find is that we really have seen a very linear growth with compensation if you kind of average out what happened with COVID. Yeah, and what’s been really interesting though is we look at things like

Cameron Hemphill (33:34.682)
It’s amazing.

Cameron Hemphill (33:47.642)
So I predict that, okay.

Mary Beth (33:55.092)
Do they have a medical director on site? Is their medical director a core physician or a non-core physician? Who owns the practice? A couple of big things we’ve seen is a huge rise in the number of NPs and PAs taking this survey. Whereas the first year more than 60 % of the respondents were RNs, it’s totally flipped and more than 60 % of respondents are now NPs or PAs. We’ve seen the growth of needing to have that advanced practice designation to diagnose to

Cameron Hemphill (34:14.01)
Hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (34:24.25)
Truth.

Mary Beth (34:24.976)
and oversee other providers. We’ve seen that compensation is very very much tied to three things. It is tied to how much they work. know somebody who works 30 hours a week is not going to make as much as somebody who works 42 hours a week. It is tied to how much revenue they bring into a practice. You know the revenue of someone who makes, if you bring in $500,000 a year in revenue, you’re not going to make as much as someone who brings in over a million.

Cameron Hemphill (34:40.922)
Totally.

Cameron Hemphill (34:54.542)
You’re right.

Mary Beth (34:54.83)
and it is tied to how many years of experience they have and all things you would expect, right? But I kind of give people a general guideline. So write this down if you’re looking for a general guideline. If your provider full-time brings in a half a million dollars or less in patient revenue, and that is what the patient pays, patient revenue, not net, any of that, then they’re probably going to make their total compensation package is probably going to be around 15 % of their revenue production.

Cameron Hemphill (35:16.43)
Yep, top line.

Cameron Hemphill (35:25.114)
So 15 % of the 500 grand. Let’s just call it. 500 or less.

Mary Beth (35:25.166)
if they make, yep, or less than 500. 500 to 750, you’re going to see about 17.5%. 750 to a million, about 20%. Million to a million and a half, about 22.5%. Million and a half to two million, about 25%. And if you have a $2 million injector, I’m just going to say it right now, you pay them 30%.

Cameron Hemphill (35:47.67)
Thank

Mary Beth (35:50.858)
or whatever the world they want because your risk of losing that person and all that revenue that they brought in walking out the door, it’s bigger than anything you’re going to pay that injector. Because a $2 million injector, I’m sorry.

Cameron Hemphill (36:02.586)
Yeah, what is that? 600 grand at 30 % if you’re bringing in 2 million. It’s a great lifestyle. How many hours do you think like if you’re a $2 million producer? don’t know. Yeah, yeah. mean, have to have high ticket sales and you better end your work and your tail off. Yeah, you’re a unicorn.

Mary Beth (36:08.418)
Yeah.

Yeah, but you know what?

Do know how many hours you’re working? Do you know how? You have no life when you work that much.

Right!

And you’re probably also training, so you’re probably traveling all the time. I mean, I know a lot of these $2 million injectors, and I will tell you, they are not working two days a week eating bonbons on the couch. Okay?

Cameron Hemphill (36:28.762)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (36:36.844)
No, they’re not. No, they’re sophisticated. They wake up early. They are like have growth mindset. They love it. They’re in it for the long haul. They built up a business. They’re really, if you’re a $2 million earner, I would look at you as an entrepreneur. you’re, you know, it’s your own business within the business in a way.

Mary Beth (36:46.382)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (36:57.546)
I encourage them not to think that way if they’re employed by someone else. And I’ll tell you why, and hopefully this makes your practice owners that are listening to me understand when I say it, I really mean win-win. There are so many people that think, I have a brand, this is me, and I’m going to operate my brand within your practice. If you want to do that, I think you should have your own practice.

Cameron Hemphill (37:00.064)
Okay. True.

Cameron Hemphill (37:07.897)
Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (37:16.154)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (37:20.042)
And that’s what frustrates me when people would call me and say, hey, I’m opening up a med spa. I’ve never done this before. I’ve had a gym or I’ve had a massage. Now I’m going to go into aesthetic medicine. And I’ve got this beautiful place. And I’ve got this great logo. And I’ve got all my equipment. I bought five lasers. Now I just need you to find me an injector that will come in and do it all for me. And find me somebody who’s got five years of experience and got a book of business that they’ll bring to my practice. And I’m like, why?

Cameron Hemphill (37:42.926)
Yep.

Mary Beth (37:45.634)
What would they get from you? You don’t know anything about the specialty. You don’t know anything about medicine. Yet what do you offer them? And that’s why people don’t understand an experience injector does not want to work for a new business owner unless they’re also going to be an equity partner. And then in that case, honestly, do they need you?

Cameron Hemphill (37:54.148)
Yeah, you’re just hungry.

Cameron Hemphill (38:05.272)
Then, yeah. Great point. Great point. I mean, you better have some really qualities of skill where each other’s lack. You know, I mean, I could see that working out in some scenarios to where it’s like, know nothing. Let’s just say, I know nothing about business. The injector knows everything about injecting and artistic and engaging with patients and patient safety and all that. But they have no interest in running.

Mary Beth (38:16.098)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (38:28.846)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (38:31.866)
a practice like a business, go partner with somebody that understands marketing, business and tech and automation and compensation and all the liability stuff. That could work. But they’d have to be an equity owner, Totally. They’d have to be an equity owner. That would be the only way. would say. Yeah.

Mary Beth (38:41.976)
But Cam, if they’re already in a practice, why would they leave an existing practice to go to a start? Yeah, exactly. And that’s what I want people to understand when they call and say, I need you to find this.

Cameron Hemphill (38:55.928)
Yeah, I totally get that. That’s tough. Hey, I’m a successful entrepreneur. I’ve owned a gym. own several of them, for example. And now I want to get into aesthetics because I hear great things and I’m going to just go cherry pick the best injector in my town and we’re going to, sky’s the limit. Yeah. I don’t see that working out.

Mary Beth (39:15.406)
And think a lot of, you know, we’ve seen a lot of private equity investment and it’s exciting, but I think a lot of them have been, there is not as much margin in the specialty as I think a lot of people assume. I don’t think there are the economies of scale that people think. And honestly, if I were going to invest in a MedSpot practice, I would not try to scale it and have

Cameron Hemphill (39:19.162)
That was tough.

Mary Beth (39:44.206)
you know, 10, 20 different locations. I would say I want to have one big location. I want to have everything because then everything you have in that one location can be the best of the best. You don’t have to try to duplicate the best of the best in 15 different locations.

Cameron Hemphill (39:46.584)
Oof, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (39:58.242)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (40:03.639)
Here’s where I’ve seen, here’s where I’ve seen private equity really struggle when it comes to buying multi-location. And let’s try to say they want to do like a roll up where they buy multiple brands in multiple areas and they want to bring it under one brand. They’re all on, on different tech stacks. They may have like five different agencies they’re working with providing leads and marketing. And then they have like, one of them has, let’s just call it like Zenody. One has a set of Cracker. One has Boulevard.

Mary Beth (40:13.89)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (40:30.615)
Hmm?

Cameron Hemphill (40:31.162)
I mean, the consolidation of that tech, you actually have to, if you’re going to do that strategy from a private equity standpoint, and I know this because I’ve talked to them a lot and I’ve had them on the show and I’ve interviewed them and I know from being an entrepreneur and doing this type of stuff, I’m like, man, you’re to go buy all these different brands. You have to get them on the same tech stack. The first thing they realize is, oh my gosh, the tech is so fragmented. This is really, really hard.

And to get somebody off of EMR for five years or 10 years and bring them into something else, that’s a, that’s a project. It’s a very serious project. And then, you know, so that’s a big layer that takes about a year to do correctly. I’ve seen them struggle there, but yeah, I, I, it can definitely be a challenge. mean, Amesba put that report out that said, you know, only 3 % of the industry is owned by private equity.

Mary Beth (41:02.637)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (41:07.022)
you

Cameron Hemphill (41:23.96)
which is interesting. hear about it all the time. And I know, I think if we pulled that report in the end of 25, you’re going to see that much higher.

Mary Beth (41:31.668)
Yeah, especially when, well, it may be that in terms of total number of locations. I think if you would look at revenue generated, it’s probably higher than that.

Cameron Hemphill (41:42.2)
Mm-hmm.

Cameron Hemphill (41:48.238)
total revenue generated in the market owned by a different cohort. Yeah, I don’t know. You’re probably right.

Mary Beth (41:50.52)
Yeah, because.

I mean, only because you think about certain brands that are extremely well-known brands. And, you know, I think about…

Cameron Hemphill (42:00.567)
Mm-hmm.

True, yeah. They have to bring in a tremendous amount of cash. Yeah, no, and they know what they’re doing. Like they have big dollars behind them.

Mary Beth (42:08.957)
huh.

They may only have 20 locations, but the amount of revenue per location, you know, whereas you may have, you know, 50. Yeah.

Cameron Hemphill (42:16.826)
Yeah, they’re there. Yeah. No, yeah, I know you bring up a great point there. Yeah. I mean, shoot, there’s some I was actually talking with a franchise recently where they have 270, they call them studios, which that was an interesting name. But

Mary Beth (42:29.111)
Mm-hmm. Well, it fits for what they’re doing. I’m guessing who you’re talking to,

Cameron Hemphill (42:35.034)
Yeah, The studios, have 200, say, I’m like, wow, that’s a, that’s a lot. Um, you know, so a lot of revenue coming through there and they are very, very sophisticated in their marketing and tech and how they, their branding and approach and messaging. They’ve done a great job, but that’s, yeah, that’s really interesting to think about.

Mary Beth (42:52.098)
Yeah, but again, every one of those studios is dependent on what?

Cameron Hemphill (42:59.374)
Well, the providers, right? You have to have great providers that are so loyal and going back to your point, you know, they have to be happy. You have to have these performance planning and how it impacts the retention. If you, yeah, that’s, that’s catastrophic. I had a really good friend, great practice. She lost a very high producer. They had a falling out or something, I’m not sure, but it impacted things substantially for quite a, quite a while.

Mary Beth (43:01.857)
Exactly.

Cameron Hemphill (43:25.986)
And to the point where I think like they changed their agreements with all their other providers.

Mary Beth (43:30.19)
Well and you know that’s here’s the funny thing is even when you talk about it they lost a high producer. They didn’t lose a high producer. A talented aesthetic provider left their practice.

Cameron Hemphill (43:46.522)
Yeah, Yeah, that hits home when you say it like that, Beth. And those are hard, I mean, those are hard to find. This is a unique person within a unique skillset that cares and does a great job. Yeah, well said.

Mary Beth (43:53.37)
and

Mary Beth (43:58.616)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (44:05.198)
I always laugh, you know, one of the most interesting things is if you talk to any of the sales reps in any territory that works for, you know, say Allerganic, Alderma, Merza, Revance, and ask them, how many injectors in your territory do you have? Yeah, anywhere from 50 to 250. don’t know. It depends on how many, you know, how many of them would you let inject you?

Cameron Hemphill (44:24.75)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (44:31.436)
That answer tells you how few people there are in this specialty that truly are good, well-educated, safe, collegial. And I guess as we wrap up with the thing, I really want anybody who is an injector or a provider or a business owner or even an executive leadership thing to realize that everything in aesthetic medicine

Cameron Hemphill (44:32.846)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (44:59.224)
It’s not about the brand. It’s not about the EMR system. It’s not about the marketing. It’s not about the devices you have. It is about who is that person that is having that direct connection with each patient. And they’re not guests in a boutique. You’re not going and buying a purse. You are getting the most highly potent toxin in the world injected into your face. You are working with a medical provider.

Cameron Hemphill (45:11.747)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (45:27.832)
who is going to give you a treatment plan, who is hopefully gonna work with you for years to come. And I think if we stop and think about this specialty, there’s nothing, you would never say all these nephrologists work in the nephrology industry. You would never say, let’s just think about all those infectious disease docs out there and think about how they are as a producer.

Cameron Hemphill (45:45.914)
Thank

Cameron Hemphill (45:53.198)
Right.

Mary Beth (45:53.442)
they’re medical providers. And that’s the same thing we have to continue to remember in aesthetic medicine. And especially in aesthetics, non-surgical aesthetics, it is an incredibly specialized artistic field. And my gut…

as we grow is we’re going to see more of the injectables and kind of the art part of it come back into medical practices and more of kind of the med spa or more of the chain type practices may transition to be more wellness centers, you know, whether you’re looking at hormones or weight loss, things that are more easily taught and replicated.

Cameron Hemphill (46:32.014)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (46:33.74)
You you look at ideal image, they didn’t become the largest chain in the United States from doing injectables. They’re laser hair removal centers and they are the largest clueless sculpting. And so, you you think, yeah, yeah. So when you’re thinking about, know, when entrepreneurs or when practice owners are thinking about, want to grow, you got to really think about, is it more important for you to scale? Well, if so,

Cameron Hemphill (46:46.146)
Mm-hmm. Much easier to conduct this, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mary Beth (47:02.174)
What is scalable within your practice? Or is it more important for you to develop a true medical practice that serves patients needs? And that may be a smaller practice and they’re both okay.

Cameron Hemphill (47:16.344)
Yep, yep. And shoot, know, what I’ve seen is like some of these micro-nailing devices too carry a really great margin. So you can have an esthetician depending on where you’re located, you know, conduct this machine and it’s low cost, low cost to run, high impact, gives a great result. You know, you can replicate it if you will, which is interesting.

Mary Beth (47:24.322)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mary Beth (47:28.75)
Woof.

Mary Beth (47:37.122)
Yeah, you know, and so that’s where I think it’s gonna be super interesting for the next 10 years to see kind of where we go. And I think we will continue to see wellness and regenerative medicine as such an interesting concept because it really is something that has no definitive definition. And so I think it’ll be very interesting to watch how that’ll, you you look at the changes with the GOP1s, what’s that gonna do to places?

Cameron Hemphill (47:52.984)
Yep.

Cameron Hemphill (47:57.172)
Yeah.

Mary Beth (48:06.478)
that have really built weight loss services. So yeah, I think we’re in a really exciting field. And I think the industry side, you, me, the Allergan’s, the Galdermas, the vendors of the world, they’re gonna keep creating new products. They’re gonna keep adapting. They’re gonna keep offering new services. And the medical side of it is really going to have to think every year.

What do we want to be? What is our brand? What are our goals for our practice? And they’re going to have to make sure that they choose the right people and the right vendors, but that they also choose, develop, and retain the right providers. Because until we have people willing to have robots do all these things for them, it’s still going to be dependent upon that person who’s being the provider.

Cameron Hemphill (48:47.938)
Yeah. geez.

Cameron Hemphill (48:53.858)
Yeah, a provider. mean, it’s such an intimate setting, you know, to where those providers really are. mean, they’re so impactful for the practice. I appreciate you sharing your insight, your knowledge, you you being a Titan in the industry for as long as you have. I know that, you know, you’re busy over there and thank you so much for joining.

Mary Beth (49:18.281)
It’s totally my pleasure and if anybody needs to get a hold of me, TitanAesthetic.com and yeah, on social media and all that stuff as well. Though I’m not very good, I don’t have to admit. So need something like Earth 99 to make a better…

Cameron Hemphill (49:32.282)
Well, I get your emails. mean, shoot, you know, that’s kind of what triggered me. I’ve had you on before. I love the conversation. Like you really helped actually me get into me start thinking more about calling this more of a specialty, which it’s so obvious, you know, but I think you get stuck. get stuck in my brain of like industry and you know, those types of words. It’s like such a specialty. And in fact, I use that word more often than you would think because of you, believe it or not.

Mary Beth (49:56.206)
Thank you.

Thank you.

Cameron Hemphill (50:00.57)
So I appreciate that and I appreciate you how much you you care about this amazing specialty and really giving the listener insights on whether you’re a practice owner or you’re a provider and you guys going into 2025 your outlook on where your career path wants to go. So if you guys have questions or curious or want to connect with with Mary Beth Hagen go to her website go check out her social media.

She has a wealth of knowledge, her and her team guys, so I would encourage you to do it. And I’ll leave it at that. So thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it. And if you guys, if you found this particular episode, my biggest ask is share it. There, you guys are all friends and colleagues. Please share it with one another. Rate it. I’d really appreciate it. All the content we create on here is just to give back to the industry. So thank you so much. Until next time, injecting. Thanks so much.

Mary Beth (50:53.4)
Thanks so much, Cam. All right.